I feel welcome to the show I'm really appreciate you taking your time out of your day to talk with us and teach our audience about your methods and what you've learned in your career and to get started I'd like to give our audience who may not know who you are a little bit of background about your your running background as well as your training principles good to be with you Jeff my pleasure um I I'm in track and field in high school in college and I was always a sprinter and they tried me to do try to get me to do long distance like the quarter-mile mom and and I just didn't didn't want to I didn't want to run that far I was really good at running 100 and 200 hundred hundred yards back then and 220 yards in the relay and it was it was great and when I graduated college eventually after many years too many years I started jogging because I wanted to get back into shape I was in school for many many years and it just beat me up physically and mentally and I want to get back into shape and I started jogging and one day I was watching the Boston Marathon on the local TV and I thought well gee that's that's interesting maybe I'll run a marathon in the New York City Marathon was six months away and I thought that's plenty of time so I like trained I ran the marathon I finished and and I kept going from that point and at that stage I had been in practice just for a a couple of years I think and um started seeing a lot of runners with injuries and okay we can we stopped to take a step back you said you've been in practice your doctor correct just to make our audience aware I'm no longer in practice but I wasn't cracked and I used a variety of therapies from biofeedback and manipulation diet and nutrition and of course coaching became a very big issue and the reason it became a big issue was because I started seeing mostly runners and I was in the New York City area so in 1977 when I ran into practice yeah 77 the running boom was really starting to swell and the New York City the Nira Road Runners Club spawned a lot of running clubs in the surrounding communities and ours was no exception I was involved with that and so all of a sudden I started seeing a lot of runners with injuries all kinds of injuries and I would treat them and many of them were easy to correct fortunately and but then I noticed they would come back either with the same injury or a new injury and it didn't take long to realize that what they were doing in their training was interfering really with what I was doing my treatment and as a new practitioner I didn't mind people coming back to see me frequently because they were injured or injured but after a while I realized this is some you know this is not what health care is all about my job is really to work myself out of a job by teaching the the patient the runner in this case how to be how to be healthy and I realized the only way to do that was to ask them about coaching or ask them about their training and I realized that since most of them didn't have coaches I needed to play that role as well and I started I started doing that mm-hmm oh that's interesting so you're kind of your coaching background came more from your medical practice and realizing that there was this need for people to to realize what good training would be so they can stay injury-free as opposed to coming from a background where maybe traditionally someone goes to school for exercise physiology or you know those types of those types of avenues and and going that way and I think actually that's probably a big reason why your method is has worked so well to keep people injury free so let's talk a little bit about you know what the with the basic principles that that you espouse are and kind of how they came about well I think when I ran that New York City Marathon it was it was tortured it was you know was I I had trained for six months from from from zero running and I didn't get hurt but it was just not enough training and my goal was to run this marathon and it was sort of as a way to kind of in a sense prove my health and I remember crossing the finish line and being taken away to the medical tent and kind of passing out and waking up a little while later and kind of looking around seeing all these runners in pain groaning and moaning and ambulances coming and going doctors running around and I and I thought well I did this for my health but this doesn't look like a very healthy place and I realized one of the important lessons of my my career which was being healthy and being fit or two very different things and I didn't really get healthy all I did was get fit enough to run a marathon and that became a very important philosophy for me an important lesson to pass on in my patients and my my goal was to help the patient be a healthy and fit runner and so my philosophy has been and still today as much as it was back then to not do anything in training or racing that's not going to also be health promoting and the bottom line here is that we have so many runners who are fit fit enough to run up 10k fit enough to run sub40 10k or some 30 10k fit in with your own marathon but they're not healthy healthy because they're injured they're sick unfortunately some of them are dying and you know just just you know people people relate to that so because most runners get injured mm-hmm no I agree 100% and I think for meliss runners even if you're a beginner you know you can really appreciate that because I think so many runners start out wanting to run you know beginner runners start out because they want to get healthier but along those lines they don't realize that getting fitter for like if their goal is to run go from zero to training for a marathon that's not necessarily going to make them healthier you definitely they're going to get fitter but they're not going to get healthier and I think that's a great point that you're able to just distinguish between those two for the beginner runner and then also for the advanced runner who may say well I can run a marathon in sub 3 hours or I can qualify for Boston I must be very fit I can eat whatever I want or I can do all these things and they don't necessarily realize that being able to to run really fast doesn't necessarily mean that you're a healthy individual so I think that's a fantastic philosophy for both sides of the equation yeah I knew I knew a more than a few couch potatoes when I was in practice patients who came in and said ah you know I've got to get I've got to get back in shape and I would encourage them to start doing something and they would and and I'd see them maybe a year later or two years later and and and I would say you know you were healthier when you were a couch potato because they began and it's it's sad the priority in the running community and it's not different than then any other sport and I worked in virtually every sport I was trained racehorses for a while as well that was a little fun but I work in all sports and the philosophy the the focus by all the athletes in all sports is really the same thing it's that I need to train and I need to get better and and they often forget that there's this health factor which is actually going to keep them going and actually make them more fit and make them a better athlete for a longer period of time so very very important absolutely um so let's talk with you know let's start if let's say we're a beginner runner coming to you and saying you know I want to get I want to run this race I want to get fitter how do you approach that from a training perspective what kind of principles do you tell them to abide by when they're doing training to be able to do increase both their fitness and their health at the same time and make sure they stay injury-free well there is a lot of things one is I try to get them to understand about intuition and instincts mm-hmm because every animal on earth knows how to eat except human every animal on earth knows how to run fast and run slow and monitor themselves from a fitness standpoint except for humans we've lost that instinct and a lot of it has to do with marketing of products in the no pain no gain Society and that sort of thing um so I try and encourage them to pay attention to their body every little thing every little twinge if it will ache every little feeling every little afternoon fatigue or post meal sleepiness every little sign and symptom has meaning and for me in practice one of my important goals was to assess a runner if they're injured or not was you know assessing them meant asking them about their little aches and pains and asking them about it you know what does their energy do after a meal was it due before meal do you get to sleep quickly and stay asleep will you wake up at 2:00 a.m. all these things are very meaningful and I try to encourage patients to think the same way what does this mean it all has meaning but when I developed very quickly in practice I think by the by 1980 I was using um something that I had written a paper on in college in in um somewhere along the way on biofeedback and what we were doing was measuring the individual subjects the test subjects and we were exposing them to various stresses running in place writing by showing them really ugly pictures showing them sexy pictures and and we were monitoring things we're monitoring many things including the heartbreak and I realized how quickly the heart rate goes up and down based on external stimulus and in 1980 there were no 79 I guess there were really a very few heart monitoring devices but there was a cardiac monitor that was used in hospitals and I got one engine being it looked like a crossing guard how was different kind of went across the chest and then another strap went over your shoulder and had this big box that strapped into the strap and you have to kind of look down in a shirt to see the heart rate um and I started testing people in my office and then by then I was going out to the track every week or twice a week with a group of athletes to watch them to evaluate their gait and other things and and then I start accumulating heart rates and realizing that there is a relationship between heart rate and changes in gauge for example if your heart rate goes up too fast or if it goes up too high your game will become more irregular to make a long story short I developed a formula called the 180 formula and in that formula mom which I think by 1983 was pretty well set has kind of stood the test of time and I've since correlated with oxygen uptake respiratory quotient and lactate levels um brain waves a lot of different things in addition to treating patients and helping people perform better I have this researchers mentality and they like to measure things so I would always beer stuff and I probably spent twice as much time with every patient I saw because I like measuring things so everything you know and I would keep records and a crunch data and all that kind of stuff so the heart monitor became a very important biofeedback device for me when I was working one-on-one with with this runner and then it wasn't until I think 1983 the polar developed the wireless heart monitor and they were available to everybody up until then you know patients would I would buy two or three of these monitors and always have them available runners would come by and borrow them can go to the track which was only a mile away and then they come back after the workout and drop the monitor off and um you know things have changed but the heart monitor became a very important biofeedback device and what I want patients to do what I wanted runners to do was to understand how they felt at a heart rate of 70 and a heart rate of 80 and as they ran faster in their heart rate got to 1990 20 and 150 and underneath how are they feeling I want them to relate to that and and I got to the point where I was encouraging you know we would have contests and I when I was win we we'd say let's let's see you could run out of 142 Hartree and we take turns with the monitor and people learned how to do that eventually and but it was a it was probably the best the best way to determine a very important function which is how can you burn more fat the concept of fat burning is very simple we we have we have two basic forms of energy sugar and fat we burn both all the time most of the time and we do burn some protein for energy but that's a whole another story and not more the exception than the rule but we burn fat and sugar for energy sitting here right now we'll both bring a certain mix of fat and sugar question is how much fat and sugar are you burning and what you might look up I know how much I'm burning because I've measured it actually tell in the course of a day and if I have a stressful day I know I'm gonna start burning that and I could feel but runners who burn more fat in the course of the day and night because we burn fat sugar all night long as well um and those who burn higher amounts of fat during run are generally more fit and more healthy interesting so before we continue because there's a lot of great points there that I want to follow up on you mentioned you know your method of 1 the 180 method can you explain a little bit about you know what that is how people can calculate it and we'll put it on our website so people can have the actual numbers but I'd like to have you explained in your own words for people that have may have heard it before but have heard it wrong or missing have a misconception about it and you know again we touched on this before we went on but the the the rumors I hear about what the 180 formula is are sometimes funny no please look at the Florida and you know calculated properly but what I did in the beginning was I realized that there was this certain level of intensity where a runner's gate would change for the worse aches and pains would come on recovery would be slower and so on and so forth and I thought well ok that means we want to determine what's the best heart rate for the runner to train that so that not only they could they could burn more fat for energy but they would not have a historic game they would not develop muscle imbalance they would um they wouldn't get injured they would actually correct injuries and that process would in a new runner that I saw for the first time which sometimes take me two hours from an assessment input and once we determined it the runner would go off a train and I'd see him on a couple of weeks later and they'd be training it a particular heart rate and I want to evaluate them and I would sometimes say well you're you're going a little bit over so we're going to cut your hunger again and this was a tedious thing and I thought well gee there must be a way to figure out a formula and I knew there was the vo2 max issue when I never um never thought much of a year to max as a worthwhile assessment tool but I knew about fat burning and I um I also knew that we couldn't send people to and actually cut back then you had to go to an exercise physiology lab to have a lot measure than that they just didn't they weren't very popular um and then and I thought well there must be an easy way to do this in a formula would be the most logical I knew that 224 m and I knew that it was not very accurate night there was nothing published about it um and so I started taking the runners that I had determined to heart rate with that seemed to work fine and I thought how can we how can we extrapolate the data that we have of them and come up with a number and um and I took months and one day actually in the shower I just sort of I don't want to say I had a vision because people think of me as as being a little strange anyway but I had a vision there was this 180 I was thinking of the 220 formula and wondering where they got that from and they just pulled it out of nowhere um and all of a sudden out of somewhere else comes 180 and I cook I can't use 180 because I've got all this data and so I basically just crunched everything and I ended up with 180 you subtract your age and then which doesn't have any meaning 180 minus your age doesn't mean anything now despite all the rumors oh but then there are there are different categories you have to find the category that best matches your health and fitness level so if you're a beginning a beginner runner or if you're in rehab for a heart condition or you had a hip replacement if you're overweight and you're just getting a program of walking and jogging if you're already training and you're but you're injured or you get too many coals every year if you're if you're competing and you're not injured so on and so when you find the category that you best fit into and it'll tell you to subtract 10 from the 180 minus the age subtract 5 don't subtract anything or add 5 is 4 categories and if you're honest which is the hardest part you find the category that best matches you and if you're not sure you pick the one that is most conservative the one that gives you the lowest heart rate that becomes the heart now if we compare the formula with the process of the tedious process of putting somebody on the treadmill measuring their oxygen and carbon dioxide levels and doing all that stuff and compare the results of the two they often are within one of you beats of each other oh and so they were surprisingly accurate you know it took me a couple of years to figure that out and I was quite confident in and what what I then had to do was learn that whether you're swimming or biking or running that 180 heart rate that what I call the maximum there robic training heart rate is the same what's different is your perceived exertion so if you're training if you're if your maximum aerobic training heart rate is 150 let's see um then running at 150 is going to feel kind of easy biking at 150 is going to feel kind of easy but a little bit more effort is going to be required because you're you're not using as much muscle mass when you're on the bike you have a coasting factor your stress level literally stress levels are lower when you're in the pool or you don't have much gravity effect on your level so there's hardly any stress on you and now to get to a 150 heart rate you have to work really hard so that makes a lot of sense factors that kind of fell into place in the in the years after that 185 which I think came about in 1983 mm-hmm so now that runners have this 180 formula let's say they're honest with themselves which is which is really hard to do because I know runners I work with them all the time and they will always say well I'm a tough guy I'm fit and always choose the higher number but let's just assume that somebody's really honest with themselves and they've they've picked the right number so that now correlates through their easy running pace correct that callings with the highest heart rate they should be training in order to do several things one is to burn body fat now if they burn more body fat they're going to get thinner because their body's not going to need to hold as much fat and I'll tell you one thing I've noticed through the years through the decades is that going to races um has become a bit sad because I have seen a continuous change in the body images of not just runners but swimmers and swimmers and bikers triathletes racecar drivers hockey players you know everybody body fat content is going up and people are getting much too big and that's a problem but at this training heart rate of whatever it is 150 um they will learn their metabolism will learn to burn more body fat for energy which will allow them to go faster over time so yeah they're going to complain that they're going to slow at their maximum aerobic heart rate but what happens is as the months go by at some point they start complaining they have to go to ask at the same heart ring and I can give you a lot of case histories and a lot of examples of individuals but probably the my most favorite athlete that I ever worked with was Mark Allen won six Ironman championships and was a sub 30 minute 10k runner me mark mark was very disciplined and that was his strength and he was very disciplined with this is training in the heart monitor and when I first started working with him at a 155 heart rate mark was able to run 820 on a track and I remember running around the track with him and he had that monitor yet to look down his shirt and and you know he kept saying this is pretty slow I said yeah but but it'll get faster and I said this is this is the rate you have to go and he said I'm not sure I'm not sure I can do this and I realized what he was saying this was San Diego in 1983 the mecca of the news for of triathlon the mecca of endurance athletes how could how could somebody go out and run in an a20 pace when there's all these speakers you want him by you I said well mark you could train at night nobody see laughing but he called me the next morning and said you know I went for a run in the hills this morning and my average pace was closer to nine minute pace I said all that's not surprising you have to slow down when you go up a hill well it wasn't too many years later that mark started complaining about having go too fast because at the same heart rate he was now going seven minutes a mile and then he started going six thirty minutes a mile then he started going six minutes a mile and he he broke five or he grow I think he got down to five ten pace well for 515 pace at the same great what's the difference burning more fat in addition to building more aerobic muscles and you know staying healthy and continuing to to improve on on fitness levels and well there's dietary factors there's all kinds of things but that's the big difference right no I mean I think there's I mean there's so much to pull out of that and I think obviously the the the big issue is it goes back to when when runners look to improve when they're using your method it's not so much that they're their heart rate is going to change they actually want to stay at that same maximum aerobic heart rate but it's going to continue to get easier and easier and easier and for most people who are training for the marathon or even the half marathon where that makes a lot of sense is that marathon pace let's say you know roughly or your marathon pace is going to be that top-end aerobic kind of pace is that that marathon pace is going to come down and down and down and that's ultimately how you get faster exactly exactly and for those who may not know and I know this but and you probably do as well when you talk about burning fat and sugars where that really comes into play from the marathon is your ability to to burn fat as a fuel source which is critical in the marathon because you can only store so many carbohydrates in the body usually a little bit under two hours worth of carbohydrates and for almost there for everybody actually they can't run a marathon under two hours and so what you need what really this method is doing is teaching you to run faster while burning fat as a fuel source exactly and it's really doing it's really doing a very important thing and it's teaching you to build your aerobic system if we forget about the aerobic system we learn about the digestive system and the nervous system the muscle system but there is this aerobic system in the body that incorporates the aerobic muscle fibers which are called slow twitch fibers for a reason because they make you run slow but from our gallon 515 was slow and for the many people who are able to run under 5:30 or under six minutes or under seven and it's that's still slow and when you look at how how much of when we look at look at fat and sugar burning but a marathon is an aerobic event we generate we we rely on 90% of our aerobic energy for a marathon in a 10k it's about 95% mm-hmm so if that's the case why are all these runners spending all this time training above that aerobic level or training anaerobically which is quite often what they're doing every day huh when the races from a 10k to a marathon and Beyond are 95 98 % ago no absolutely I mean that's it's we've definitely you know I've written a lot of articles on that exact topic and looked at those charts of you know the paces are sorry the percentage of aerobic to anaerobic contribution of distance event and in those types of things and it's so true and the aerobic system becomes so important in developing it just like like you're talking about is absolutely critical you know one of the questions that I had and then I kind of post you beforehand was you know a lot of a lot of the athletes that I work with they really struggle and I know I did as well when i was when i was running is that concept that running easier is building your aerobic system better than then running faster most the time if you're if you're at that level how do you work with athletes or how did you work with athletes who really had a hard time believing that they were actually getting fitter and aerobic lee even though they were running slower because that's a really hard concept to to really to grasp it is a hard concept especially in our society we're no pain no gain we want results overnight willing to take drugs to get results overnight um and it's difficult so there's there's two kinds of patients there's a patient who either comes to see me or came to see me because their friend got faster and so they believed what I was doing um or they were desperate enough to believe in me or they came to see me and they had some physical ailment and that's how I saw mark down I was doing a workshop in San Diego where I could work with ten or twelve athletes over a three-day period and mark was one of them and and he wasn't able to run he had an injury a calf injury and and I kind of saw during the during the lectures the lecture part of the the workshop and he you know he liked honest and I mean I loved an arc I still love mark but hopefully he won't hear this but he was I knew what he was thinking like what is this guy talking about he wants us to run slower well mark had an injury and I was fortunately able to correct it right away he was able to run the next day okay um and he was able to race the following weekend in Hawaii in a small triathlon I said surely you'll be able to race ah he was not hit not able to race um but in feeling pain and he won the race so he was ready to listen to anything I told him at that point that's the other type of person is um you know they come to me because they're injured and and they find out that I know what I'm doing with injuries so maybe I know what I'm doing with this other weird idea of these strange short monitors which are not strange anymore everybody has them that right um but you know the big question I think is it is always how long is it going to take me to get faster right that was my next question so I'm glad you you worked right into it yeah the answer is how long is it going to take you to get rid of all the things in your life that are interfering with your health and fitness and that's a big issue um if you're not eating well you're not going to get faster all that quick you may never get faster I had a patient who did really well she was able to go from I don't know just under a 10-minute mile pace at her it will be heart rate to about eight minutes were a period of a year maybe um and then she kind of got stuck there and she came in one one day said I'm kind of stuck at eight minutes what should I do so we went through her diet we went through her stress as we went through her training and everything else and um she happen to mention her mother being diabetic I said well there any other diabetes in your family oh yeah my father and then I realized that this this woman who was only 28 of 29 years of age was very sensitive to call the hydrants so the amount of carbohydrate she was eating was way too much forward unknown to me she wasn't getting any symptoms but it was a subtle thing and I said let's try reducing the carbohydrates even more she did and in in a two-week period she went from eight minutes she'd lost almost she took almost a minute off her her time Robert I meant at that it will be covered so she went from about an eight minute pace to about a seven in piece that's an extreme example but those things occur so the question is how healthy are you and and and is your stress level real high are you reading really bad are you skipping meals are you not sleeping are you cheating on your heart rate are you going at some day without your monitor because the gang goes out for a long run and you know you're a runner you got to do the same thing so you're out there running a 15 or 20 beats higher than you should be in once a week how significant is that probably very significant for the average room mm-hmm no I mean I think I think that's a great point yeah definitely um going back to almost maybe the start of the conversation when you talked a lot about the biofeedback and you know what that implies for the athlete and learning how to feel those types of things one of the struggles that I've always had as a coach is I'll tell an athlete to run easy and their immediate responses well what pace what pace is that and I always think to myself well it's easy you know you you go out and you run and if it feels easy then that that's easy um you know how have you worked with athletes with that biofeedback and kind of teaching them more how to to go back to that point you talked about with how to learn that instinct you know what's that instinct of feeling like okay I'm running easy and that's what easy is and not necessarily needing to push it have you found any good strategies to work with athletes that way well I'm attempted to do that many different ways and the you know some people have it some people I grew up in the 60s I studied a Zen Buddhism and Eastern philosophy and and I got it back then um in some cultures people grow up with that instinct I work with with greta watts for for a few years and when I first saw Greta I had that old monitor when he had to look down a shirt and um she didn't speak very good English Danish she got I said you have to look down your shirt to see her she kind of looked at me funny when I said Branagh run at your normal training pace and I set the monitor to what I think her training they should be and she was dead-on distinctly she knew what her body should should feel like um a lot of times I would say to a person when you're done in aerobic workout whether it's long or short you should feel like you haven't done anything you should feel like you can turn around and do the same workout again not that you want to but you should feel like you haven't done anything that's a pretty cool way to to relate to your body yeah in terms of you know what and they were look at fueling no that's actually great I think a lot of people could use that just right off the bat even if they don't have a heart rate monitor available after listening to this to say boom if I could do this again and not that I want to but if I could that that's perfect yeah you shouldn't your knee injury shouldn't be acting up as a matter of fact um what I discovered was that running at that aerobic maximum Margaret or below um various muscle imbalances would would get corrected the body correcting you know we cut a finger we don't have to run emergency room we don't have to do anything it heals itself the body is always fixing things and the body is always fixing muscle imbalances which is the cause of many many physical injuries also imbalance as you can see in a runner and I spent so many hours on the track running back and forth to the middle of the straightaway to watch runners come down and then turn around and watch their backside as they run away watch them from a distance and you can you can see that you know we all know what our friend looks like um who's 300 yards down the road because no he's gay we don't see his face but we know he's gay they know our key and that's because they're sum total of muscle balance or imbalance usually is somewhat consistent so that that hip rotation excess hip rotation or that excess some whatever that you have that's causing an injury should not get worse when you run it actually should get better so that's another good way little aches and pains you might have should go away you're in an aerobic a true a little bit looking no it makes a lot of sense and actually kind of related one of the things that I've heard from runners when they talk about you know using your method to run is that sometimes especially when they start with kind of like mark Alyn where they're like this is just too slow and some athletes feel like it's almost they feel like it's too slow to physically run that slow how do you approach athletes who feel like they have that problem i I just tell them I'm very frank oh this is the level of your fitness but grab robic Fitness I don't care what you can caitanya's this is the level of your aerobic fitness and if it's way down here and you want to become a better runner and you want to get healthy you've gotta bring your aerobic fitness up to a higher level and it's really as simple as that you know people people don't complain when they go for a vo2 max days and they're they're numb was a terrible they just don't tell anybody and then they you know then they go out and train hard anyway even though they know they should but it's it's um it's it's a it's a reality that people need to understand that your your fitness level is way way down there it's bottom down and it's the reason you're not getting better it's the reason you're not getting healthier it's the reason you're sick it's the reason for all these problems that you have and you know I would always have runners come in and say you know why can't I be like so-and-so who never is injured and always runs well and keeps getting better and I say Raymond so-and-so is a patient among and none of that is true Center um you know pay attention to yourself and and focus on being both healthy and fit because it's it's very important you want to be running until the day you die and you want to you want to be a you know running well into your hundreds and not and not dropped in in your forties and fifties and sixties and seventies that's unacceptable mm-hmm you know this is this is what it's all about no I think you know that's fantastic and I think I think that is the overall encompassing theme of this interview and in your training I think that's probably actually the perfect way to end in a sense I mean because it really encapsulate encapsulate sat all um but before we go I want to you know ask you about a little bit about what you're doing now and how athletes can kind of find you and some of the other things that you're doing because I know you're really into music so well I can't find it because I'm off the grid actually I go around doing lectures um we're going on our fourth tour but I've become a musician as many people know um I've got a new album coming out in February which will be the fifth album and we do what's called a music and wellness tool Coralie and i Coralie is a family physician who's um we met in 1997 she came to one of my seminars and we've been working together ever since so we do we do what's called a music and wellness seminar where we play music it depends on the situation sometimes we'll go to a sports club and now they'll have a dinner for us and we'll lecture and then come usek house concerts all different types of things but they can find me on my website film a photo uncom the just just two very important that people don't read some of the old books that are out there the math atone method which is a great title I didn't come up with it but Fisher did and it's a great title it's still out there but the book is um I think it's 13 years old now okay and I I don't recommend it and publish your age when I say that but I don't recommend it the new book is called the big book of endurance training and racing okay I forgot the title and that that details all the things we've talked about aha and those are those are discussed on the website as well okay so what we'll do is we'll throw up or for people that are listening to this podcast we'll throw out those links on the website to your to your website or and also to the book so they can check it out because I think it's it's it's a phen phenomenal read and definitely is should be on something everybody's list who's interested in training and learning more especially again how it taught how running can be that well-rounded balance between health and fitness so I definitely appreciate it and obviously hopefully they check you out check out some of your music as well and perhaps catch you on to or somewhere when you're when you're traveling around sure thanks so much no thank you so much I really appreciate it